Midi Hell

[chrisfoster]

Do you think my idea of running 5 Motu128 on a 5 port pci-e card and disabling on board usb has any merit?

I'm hoping that the card would present itself as one hub and be the only hub visible to the OS.
The ports seem to get re-created at each boot or even a hot swap..so maybe even on one hub they would get rearranged.

At one stage it all held together nicely, I wonder if keeping the mains switched on after shutdown held a config in bios or elsewhere.

The advantages of Native sure add up.

Cheers

[CopperPhil]

Hi don't think it will work because the 5 USB port PCI-E card is probably using an internal hub.

But thinking about all of this, the answer is simple. Under Windows, MIDI Port enumeration just give me the brand and model IDs, driver version and port name. No info related to physical position. And the ports are enumerated in a random order from one session to another, probably depending on when the devices have been discovered by the USB host and P&P notified to the system. Since the 5 Motu128 have the same brand ID, same model ID, are using the same driver, and since they'll be declared in an unpredictable order, there is no way to identify surely each instance.

A weird idea but... maybe could you try to turn on the computer, log in, wait it is stable, then turn on the Motu128 one by one following a predefined order and waiting it is up and running before turning on the next one. Then check with Midi-Ox (for example) if the MIDI port list is the same between two sessions.

[chrisfoster]

Once I get the 5 port card I will try that method.

I have attached my current enumeration as reported by USBDeview....the unique components are Instance ID and serial number.

Maybe USB ports have serial numbers, like Nics have Mac's..unless that is a unique motu ID

Cheers

[chrisfoster]

I might be on to something with USB3 ports...it does seem more consistent than USB2 ports.

Observing in USBDeview app I observe the following behaviour:

I have a 4 port USB3 PCI-e card and when I plug the same Motu128 into each port a new entry with the driver is created, further hotswapping with any of the other Motu128's creates no more port entries.

I now leave all 4 Motu128's in the same ports.

I create a simple 1 ->3 mapping in Copperlan and across multiple re-starts the config holds.

I do multiple shutdowns, remove power - drain capacitors and mapping is still retained upon re-start.

** This gives me confidence that when I receive my 5 port USB3 PCI-e card, it may just stay stable

Cheers

[CopperPhil]

Great! Can you please give us the reference of this PCI-e USB3 card? this is a very interesting information to share with other users. Thanks!

/Phil

[chrisfoster]

Not sure if there's anything special about this USB 3.0 card but this is the one I tested on: http://goo.gl/UBafhU

And this is the one I'm waiting on because I need 5 ports: http://goo.gl/nXOB8h

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I would advise to remove all USB2 connector leads off the Motherboard and disable in Bios...dedicate 1 USB3 card to Midi and another USB3 card to anything else.

If you use Windows, download 'USBDeview' and hot plug USB2 devices in and out..you can observe the piles of entries created by USB2 live (loads of obsolete ones also)

** If you have more than one of the same model USB Midi Interface (not sure about different models) then try this procedure:

1/ Disable all USB2 sockets physically and Bios
2/ Insert USB3 cards (dedicate one to USB Interfaces)
3/ Boot and use USBDeveiw (as Admin) to delete ALL entries (you will need to run a PS2 mouse (best) or a wireless mouse (and re-insert after all devices are deleted - but NOT into the card reserved for Midi)
4/ Insert ONE of the identical Midi Interfaces into every port consecutively of the USB3 card dedicated to Midi (you will see entries for each USB port with it's driver via USBDeview **sort by Driver Filename)
5/ Insert all identical Midi Interfaces into this one USB3 card and leave them there
6/ Connect a Midi Controller into one of the Midi Interfaces on Midi Port 1
7/ Use Midi-Ox and go to Options | Midi Devices and highlight ONLY Port1 for each Midi Interface on both input and output sides. Save this setup as 'USB3 Test' (or whatever)
8/ Go to View | Port Status and NOTE which input 'Port 1' is lit up when playing the controller...this will serve as a reference point during multiple cold shutdowns (we want that to stay the same always)
9/ Go to View | Port Routings and clear ALL connections.
10/ Connect the Input Port of the Midi Controller (by dragging patch lead) to Output Port 1 of every other of your identical Midi Interfaces
11/ Go back to View | Port Status and NOTE the names of the other hubs lighting up on Port 1 on the Outputs in MidiOx and on the actual Interface. Identical USB Hubs will display with a numbered prefix, except #1 and will be reflected in CopperLan Manager also.
12/ After confirming connection between all Interfaces and taking notes of their names, do a shutdown and very importantly: Remove the Power cord and wait 30 seconds before re-plugging/ Re-booting.
13/ Go to View | Port Status and play the controller...is everything the same? If yes, then do step 12 again...still good?
14/ Go into CopperLan Manager and make connections identical to the setup in Midiox | View | Port Routings
15/ Shutdown MidiOx and play the controller...if port 1 on the other Interfaces light up, congratulations...your at the stage I'm at (fingers crossed) with this multiple/identical USB Midi Hub problem, whereby all the devices get renamed at start-up, rendering any routing unworkable.
16/ If you dare, then proceed with full CopperLan Manager routings and TAKE snapshots along the way

I'll report back on how my 5 port USB PCI-e card / 5 x Motu Midi128 interfaces goes down.

Cheers

[chrisfoster]

The 5 port Via based card was a nightmare!

Do not install any USB3 cards that use VIA drivers...they are a nightmare with USB Midi interfaces!!

I now use 3 identical USB3 PCI-e cards that utilize Renasys/NEC chipset with great success.

You can delete these Renasys/NEC boards in USBDeview and they just spring back to life. They also seem to remember their port assignments very well if your using more than 1 USB interface I use 5 x Motu 128) which of course is essential for routing.

Cheers

[Scoox_]

According to Pete Brown from Microsoft, the new Windows 10 MIDI API will bring to the table a better device naming scheme.

[chrisfoster]

Be nice if they allowed midi drivers to be used by more than 1 session. I sold my 5 Motu Midi 128's and picked up some AL-88C's with the proceeds...much better.